Discussion:
What if real life was like Usenet?
(too old to reply)
ROTC Jeep List
2003-09-12 03:39:08 UTC
Permalink
On Usenet, people argue with each other for no apparent reason. They also
seem to lie constantly, and to be blind to reality. They even think of
themselves as geniuses -- all of them.

Imagine driving to the home of some friends. There's some road construction
up ahead, so the sign halfway blocking the road reads: NO THRU TRAFFIC.
You wonder if the construction is before or after your friends' house, but
decide to go around the sign anyway.

Seeing this, a man sitting in a beat-up blue pickup bolts to attention. He
revs up the engine and charges the Bronco towards you, screaming
unintelligibly and waving his arms like a madman. You slam on the brakes
and pull to the side of the road before he can ram into. The man then
climbs over to the passenger seat, rolls down his window and leans his head
out. "There's no thru traffic," he spits at you.

"Well, I'm just going to see my friends... They live on this street."

"I said there's no thru traffic! What are you, an idiot!?"

It's pretty clear that this man can't be reasoned with, so you get the hell
out of there, as politely as possible.

Driving further down the road, you see the blue pickup, but you can't tell
if it's following you or just lurking down the road.

At your friends' house, of course, the first topic that comes up is that
lunatic in the blue Ford pickup. "He's crazy," you tell your friends. "He
just came out of nowhere, and he started screaming at me. Then he called me
an idiot for no reason...."

"I can hear you!" comes a voice outside the window.

"Oh my God," you say. "He's listening to us."

"What should we do," your friends ask.

From outside the window comes an ominous threat. "I'm going to killfile
you!"

You duck down by the arm of the chair, putting your hands on it for
security. It's really strange that this man is still trying to talk to you.
He seems to be crazy. What if he's really dangerous?

"Uh! We were just talking about somebody else," you yell.

There is no response.

After this startling event, the evening seems to be ruined. No matter how
hard you try, all that you and your friends can talk about is this strange
man. He seems to have disappeared, yet his presence is still affecting the
group.

Several hours later, everyone starts to turn in. Most of the people in the
group seem to live there, but you have to make the long drive home. You
wonder if the strange man will appear, but he seems to be gone for good.

At the traffic light before the highway, you notice the tank is a little
low. You're going to have to stop for gas.

You pull up to the last pump and notice a sign: MUST PAY FIRST AFTER DARK.
It is quite dark out. For a moment, you think that maybe the man in the
blue Ford pickup will appear and make some incoherent comment about the
sign. He does not appear.

You walk into the store and go through the useless junk you always seem to
carry, until you find your credit card.

"20 on pump six."

The clerk, a 19-year old woman with a dark tan, seems to study the name on
your card for an inordinate amount of time. Eventually, she looks up at you
and yells, "You're a fucking MORON!"
PButler111
2003-09-12 04:19:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Eventually, she looks up at you
and yells, "You're a fucking MORON!"
So you're saying she'd just read your post?
ROTC Jeep List
2003-09-12 04:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by PButler111
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Eventually, she looks up at you
and yells, "You're a fucking MORON!"
So you're saying she'd just read your post?
No...

I'm saying you drive a blue Ford Bronco.











--






http://rotcjeeplist.blogspot.com
PButler111
2003-09-12 11:48:14 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: What if real life was like Usenet?
From: "ROTC Jeep List"
Date: 9/11/2003 11:28 PM Central Daylight Time
Post by PButler111
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Eventually, she looks up at you
and yells, "You're a fucking MORON!"
So you're saying she'd just read your post?
No...
I'm saying you drive a blue Ford Bronco.
Sorry. I'm a vintage Volvo 240 wagon loyalist.
Sherry Carter
2003-09-13 23:00:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by PButler111
Subject: Re: What if real life was like Usenet?
From: "ROTC Jeep List"
Date: 9/11/2003 11:28 PM Central Daylight Time
Post by PButler111
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Eventually, she looks up at you
and yells, "You're a fucking MORON!"
So you're saying she'd just read your post?
No...
I'm saying you drive a blue Ford Bronco.
Sorry. I'm a vintage Volvo 240 wagon loyalist.
It figures a fat fuck like you would drive such a vehicle. Not
surprised.
Rotcod Eman
2003-09-21 06:12:00 UTC
Permalink
"ROTC Jeep List"
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by PButler111
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Eventually, she looks up at you
and yells, "You're a fucking MORON!"
So you're saying she'd just read your post?
No...
I'm saying you drive a blue Ford Bronco.
Well put, I laughed so hard, that my wife came running from the kitchen and
begged me to know why...

And do people acutally admit to driving Volvo's?
lol

But lets not get into throwing stones... or the fuel gage in the bronco will
shoot downwards too quickly... try driving the Mazda out of the back (the
spare tyre for the lazy, heck dont use the back for much anyway right?)

Is it possible to have fun without being at anothers expense? Well I tell
you, yes it is, but if you are not aware of it, then dont put your colours
in with your whites or else the Klan will chew your ass out. They wouldnt
like coloured clothes either would they? ooops

:-)

--
Peace & Goodwill
Treat Others with Respect and be Respected

Dr E
lizard
2003-09-13 06:07:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by PButler111
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Eventually, she looks up at you
and yells, "You're a fucking MORON!"
So you're saying she'd just read your post?
Hey, who preyed on your paradigm?
s***@aol.com
2003-09-12 04:36:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by ROTC Jeep List
On Usenet, people argue with each other for no apparent reason. They also
seem to lie constantly, and to be blind to reality. They even think of
themselves as geniuses -- all of them.
Shhhhhh! Don't tell Bill Palmer, he'll get most upset.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Imagine driving to the home of some friends. There's some road construction
up ahead, so the sign halfway blocking the road reads: NO THRU TRAFFIC.
You wonder if the construction is before or after your friends' house, but
decide to go around the sign anyway.
Seeing this, a man sitting in a beat-up blue pickup bolts to attention. He
revs up the engine and charges the Bronco towards you, screaming
unintelligibly and waving his arms like a madman. You slam on the brakes
and pull to the side of the road before he can ram into. The man then
climbs over to the passenger seat, rolls down his window and leans his head
out. "There's no thru traffic," he spits at you.
"Well, I'm just going to see my friends... They live on this street."
No, if real was like usenet, you would yell back at him:

"I not going through, I'm stopping in this street you freaking moron!
Get your Doctor to prescribe stronger meds, the one's you're on aren't
doing the job!"

You would then flash your lights, blow your horn and give him the
finger as you drove off.

If he still gave you a problem you would borrow some of Bill Palmer's
sock puppets to surround you and give you some support. They wouldn't
make much sense, but they'd make a lot of noise and attract everyone's
attention.

Sean
ROTC Jeep List
2003-09-12 04:59:56 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:39:08 GMT, "ROTC Jeep List"
Post by ROTC Jeep List
On Usenet, people argue with each other for no apparent reason. They also
seem to lie constantly, and to be blind to reality. They even think of
themselves as geniuses -- all of them.
Shhhhhh! Don't tell Bill Palmer, he'll get most upset.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Imagine driving to the home of some friends. There's some road construction
up ahead, so the sign halfway blocking the road reads: NO THRU TRAFFIC.
You wonder if the construction is before or after your friends' house, but
decide to go around the sign anyway.
Seeing this, a man sitting in a beat-up blue pickup bolts to attention.
He
Post by ROTC Jeep List
revs up the engine and charges the Bronco towards you, screaming
unintelligibly and waving his arms like a madman. You slam on the brakes
and pull to the side of the road before he can ram into. The man then
climbs over to the passenger seat, rolls down his window and leans his head
out. "There's no thru traffic," he spits at you.
"Well, I'm just going to see my friends... They live on this street."
"I not going through, I'm stopping in this street you freaking moron!
Get your Doctor to prescribe stronger meds, the one's you're on aren't
doing the job!"
You would then flash your lights, blow your horn and give him the
finger as you drove off.
If he still gave you a problem you would borrow some of Bill Palmer's
sock puppets to surround you and give you some support. They wouldn't
make much sense, but they'd make a lot of noise and attract everyone's
attention.
Sean
LOL

I fall into that trap all the time. It's so tempting to yell back.

A realistic portrayal would definitely contain some funny scenes like that.

I just hoped that I could portray the reader as some kind of hero,
completely immune to the irrational impulses of the masses. Basically the
way they think of themselves. ^_^
ActiveVerb
2003-09-12 17:58:10 UTC
Permalink
You do see this a lot. However, you also find people who are genuinely
exchanging ideas and trying to assist one another. Granted, I find this happens
more often on private boards, like mediabistro's discussion board, than on
general internet newsgroups.

<<
On Usenet, people argue with each other for no apparent reason. They also
seem to lie constantly, and to be blind to reality. They even think of
themselves as geniuses -- all of them.>>
Bill Palmer
2003-09-12 21:54:35 UTC
Permalink
"ROTC Jeep List" <my-nick-is-my-email-***@that-microsoft-email-that-starts-with-an-h.comma> wrote in message news:<wdb8b.320684$***@rwcrnsc53>...

It is not "like Usenet," it IS Usenet.


the-funny-little-wilhelp-man
"Now posting from inside your computer."
Official Entertainer to the Net Kooks
ROTC Jeep List
2003-09-12 22:44:59 UTC
Permalink
"ROTC Jeep List"
It is not "like Usenet," it IS Usenet.
Very true. I have only just now come to realize this.

Something like 20% of the "online community" posts on Usenet, and relatively
few people are online.

One would like to think that those people represent some kind of
intellectual elite, but they don't.

They are, in fact, mostly mentally ill.

They're obsessive, delusional, and psychotic.

While some members of a newsgroup may represent the best of humanity, others
are the worst.

They only turn to the computer because there are no puppies nearby. If
there were puppies nearby, they would kill them and then post to Usenet
about it.

I read an article in a sports magazine the other day... It was about how a
pitcher gains experience. The author was a relief pitcher for some team...
Anyway, he wrote that real experience is gained when the pitcher is "under
the heat."

I've posted on Usenet since 1996, but I have stumbled across very few flame
wars. Most of the time, when I'ver offended someone, it was my fault.

This phenomenon of people going crazy for no apparent reason is relatively
new to me.

What's really scary is that I can see the potential for the same thing
happening in real life.

Especially after 9/11, I've seen this type of thing in real life even more
frequently than on Usenet.

Your comment that Usenet IS real life rings true to me, and it chills me to
the bone.
the-funny-little-wilhelp-man
"Now posting from inside your computer."
Official Entertainer to the Net Kooks
One might call me a "fan" of Bill Palmer. I think he's funny and smart. I
only turn away when he acts like a vicious mad dog.
Bill Palmer
2003-09-13 03:26:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by ROTC Jeep List
"ROTC Jeep List"
It is not "like Usenet," it IS Usenet.
Very true. I have only just now come to realize this.
Something like 20% of the "online community" posts on Usenet, and relatively
few people are online.
One would like to think that those people represent some kind of
intellectual elite, but they don't.
They are, in fact, mostly mentally ill.
Speak for yourself!
Post by ROTC Jeep List
They're obsessive, delusional, and psychotic.
Speak for yourself.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
While some members of a newsgroup may represent the best of humanity, others
are the worst.
Sure, we have some bad apples, but after all
these are public forums. Let's not forget
that the same type of unfortunates you describe
go into 7-11 stores and can even be found
patronizing the best restaurants. When you
are open to the public, you get all sorts of
people--the worst along with the best. And,
in Usenet, we are open to the public. (I
would like to say "the literate public" but
that would be too far a stretch.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
They only turn to the computer because there are no puppies nearby. If
there were puppies nearby, they would kill them and then post to Usenet
about it.
Silly. I have heard and read about quite
a few animal abusers, but I don't remember
hearing that any of them posted to Usenet.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
I read an article in a sports magazine the other day... It was about how a
pitcher gains experience. The author was a relief pitcher for some team...
Anyway, he wrote that real experience is gained when the pitcher is "under
the heat."
I've posted on Usenet since 1996, but I have stumbled across very few flame
wars.
Neither have I (kidding).

Most of the time, when I'ver offended someone, it was my fault.

Don't be so humble. Every time I run into
someone who is bending over backwards to
be 'humble, I think of Dicken's Uriah Heep.
Any serious poster to Usenet WILL offend
someone. If you are afraid to do that,
you will never unlock your creative
potential as a writer. While I don't want
to offend people for things they can't
help, I DO want to offend them for their
laziness and bad thinking.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
This phenomenon of people going crazy for no apparent reason is relatively
new to me.
What's really scary is that I can see the potential for the same thing
happening in real life.
Especially after 9/11, I've seen this type of thing in real life even more
frequently than on Usenet.
Your comment that Usenet IS real life rings true to me, and it chills me to
the bone.
Well, I don't see any serious Usenet users
going around attacking people off line. Even
in the cases where the bad guys were actually
on Usenet, they were marginal and never
had anything much to say. Hangers on, that's
all.

In other words, they were losers in Usenet just
as they were in real life, and that's why they
went off the deep end. Let's see, there was
that mad dog nutcase back east who gunned down
his fellow workers. And Taliban Johnny
babbled into Usenet a few times himself.

If they and a few others of their ilk
proved anything, it would have to
be that dangerous Usenet nut-cases have a
skimpy posting style. I don't mean that
as a joke, either. Beware of the poster of
few words. It is very probable that
they had so much bottled up inside them that
they could never let go and let their thoughts
roll from their minds right into the net.

Then you hear these cases of people luring
teenagers off the net. This is stuff that has
happened in chatrooms, which I shun since they
STINK of the common herd. Furthermore, I am
a tad skeptical of this thing about teenage
girls running off with someone they met on the
net. Not that it isn't likely true, but what
people forget (in the sensationalistic
media frenzy about the dangers of the net)
is that teenage girls run off all the time,
likely for more often with the guy down at
7-ll or the pizza deliverly man than some
jerk they met while loitering about in a
net chatroom. If they are hot to trot,
they are going to trot off with someone,
anyone; you can't stick them in a convent
like the old days.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
the-funny-little-wilhelp-man
"Now posting from inside your computer."
Official Entertainer to the Net Kooks
One might call me a "fan" of Bill Palmer. I think he's funny and smart. I
only turn away when he acts like a vicious mad dog.
That's a pretty vicious swipe right there.
Your remark is uncalled for, to say the least.
While I am quick to defend my views, I certainly
don't go around attacking others simply because
I disagree with them. And I have NEVER been
seriously accused of the stuff the net bad guys
do, libeling others (though I get libeled quite
frequently in the most ugly fashion by grudge-
nursing flame war losers); forging,
counterfeiting posts, etc. So, where do you
get the "vicious mad do stuff"? Bsically,
anyone who does not like me has been out-arugued,
or out-satirized or out-written or just plain
out-thought. (Deal with it, ICEKNIFE, ya'
cowardly grudge-bearing wimp). Mercer, maybe
you should read FACTS IN THE CASE OF BILL PALMER.
You might also try "Prosthetic Extension,"
"HUMAN MIND A NATTLEFIELD IN CYBER WAR?"
"Uncanny Resemblance," "Remembered: the
Root Beer Stand Riot" or any of hundreds
of other of my stand-alone posts. If you
do that, I think you will be ashamed of your
unjust allegations and apologize for them.
ROTC Jeep List
2003-09-13 03:38:53 UTC
Permalink
"ROTC Jeep List"
Post by ROTC Jeep List
"ROTC Jeep List"
It is not "like Usenet," it IS Usenet.
Very true. I have only just now come to realize this.
Something like 20% of the "online community" posts on Usenet, and relatively
few people are online.
One would like to think that those people represent some kind of
intellectual elite, but they don't.
They are, in fact, mostly mentally ill.
Speak for yourself!
Post by ROTC Jeep List
They're obsessive, delusional, and psychotic.
Speak for yourself.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
While some members of a newsgroup may represent the best of humanity, others
are the worst.
Sure, we have some bad apples, but after all
these are public forums. Let's not forget
that the same type of unfortunates you describe
go into 7-11 stores and can even be found
patronizing the best restaurants. When you
are open to the public, you get all sorts of
people--the worst along with the best. And,
in Usenet, we are open to the public. (I
would like to say "the literate public" but
that would be too far a stretch.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
They only turn to the computer because there are no puppies nearby. If
there were puppies nearby, they would kill them and then post to Usenet
about it.
Silly. I have heard and read about quite
a few animal abusers, but I don't remember
hearing that any of them posted to Usenet.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
I read an article in a sports magazine the other day... It was about how a
pitcher gains experience. The author was a relief pitcher for some team...
Anyway, he wrote that real experience is gained when the pitcher is "under
the heat."
I've posted on Usenet since 1996, but I have stumbled across very few flame
wars.
Neither have I (kidding).
Most of the time, when I'ver offended someone, it was my fault.
Don't be so humble. Every time I run into
someone who is bending over backwards to
be 'humble, I think of Dicken's Uriah Heep.
Any serious poster to Usenet WILL offend
someone. If you are afraid to do that,
you will never unlock your creative
potential as a writer. While I don't want
to offend people for things they can't
help, I DO want to offend them for their
laziness and bad thinking.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
This phenomenon of people going crazy for no apparent reason is relatively
new to me.
What's really scary is that I can see the potential for the same thing
happening in real life.
Especially after 9/11, I've seen this type of thing in real life even more
frequently than on Usenet.
Your comment that Usenet IS real life rings true to me, and it chills me to
the bone.
Well, I don't see any serious Usenet users
going around attacking people off line. Even
in the cases where the bad guys were actually
on Usenet, they were marginal and never
had anything much to say. Hangers on, that's
all.
In other words, they were losers in Usenet just
as they were in real life, and that's why they
went off the deep end. Let's see, there was
that mad dog nutcase back east who gunned down
his fellow workers. And Taliban Johnny
babbled into Usenet a few times himself.
If they and a few others of their ilk
proved anything, it would have to
be that dangerous Usenet nut-cases have a
skimpy posting style. I don't mean that
as a joke, either. Beware of the poster of
few words. It is very probable that
they had so much bottled up inside them that
they could never let go and let their thoughts
roll from their minds right into the net.
Then you hear these cases of people luring
teenagers off the net. This is stuff that has
happened in chatrooms, which I shun since they
STINK of the common herd. Furthermore, I am
a tad skeptical of this thing about teenage
girls running off with someone they met on the
net. Not that it isn't likely true, but what
people forget (in the sensationalistic
media frenzy about the dangers of the net)
is that teenage girls run off all the time,
likely for more often with the guy down at
7-ll or the pizza deliverly man than some
jerk they met while loitering about in a
net chatroom. If they are hot to trot,
they are going to trot off with someone,
anyone; you can't stick them in a convent
like the old days.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
the-funny-little-wilhelp-man
"Now posting from inside your computer."
Official Entertainer to the Net Kooks
One might call me a "fan" of Bill Palmer. I think he's funny and smart.
I
Post by ROTC Jeep List
only turn away when he acts like a vicious mad dog.
That's a pretty vicious swipe right there.
Your remark is uncalled for, to say the least.
Don't worry about it. Even when you do go buck loco on someone, I usually
think it's well-written. I just empathize a little too much and feel
uncomfortable when I read flames. It's not a judgement of you personally.
While I am quick to defend my views, I certainly
don't go around attacking others simply because
I disagree with them. And I have NEVER been
seriously accused of the stuff the net bad guys
do, libeling others (though I get libeled quite
frequently in the most ugly fashion by grudge-
nursing flame war losers); forging,
counterfeiting posts, etc. So, where do you
get the "vicious mad do stuff"? Bsically,
anyone who does not like me has been out-arugued,
or out-satirized or out-written or just plain
out-thought. (Deal with it, ICEKNIFE, ya'
cowardly grudge-bearing wimp). Mercer, maybe
you should read FACTS IN THE CASE OF BILL PALMER.
You might also try "Prosthetic Extension,"
"HUMAN MIND A NATTLEFIELD IN CYBER WAR?"
"Uncanny Resemblance," "Remembered: the
Root Beer Stand Riot" or any of hundreds
of other of my stand-alone posts. If you
do that, I think you will be ashamed of your
unjust allegations and apologize for them.
jonny bravo
2003-09-13 03:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Palmer
If they and a few others of their ilk
proved anything, it would have to
be that dangerous Usenet nut-cases have a
skimpy posting style. I don't mean that
as a joke, either. Beware of the poster of
few words. It is very probable that
they had so much bottled up inside them that
they could never let go and let their thoughts
roll from their minds right into the net.
Or maybe I just can't type fast enough...to keep up with the multitude
of inexplicably evil shit that courses through my drug addled mind....
--
Jonny Bravo
http://www.boneheadgrafix.com
Never show somebody the cards you hold ..
Unless they are willing to ante up....


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/2003
HellPopeHuey
2003-09-13 03:47:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by ROTC Jeep List
One would like to think that those people represent some kind of
intellectual elite, but they don't. They are, in fact, mostly mentally ill.
You leave me & my pals out of this! That's a really thin line, but
I'll give you a respectful nod on that one. By the time you've
developed much intellectual capacity, you either go mad to some degree
or develop a cocoon of self-preservation or both. The "both" crowd is
quite amusing. Even my talking dog and alien sidekick think so.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by ROTC Jeep List
They're obsessive, delusional, and psychotic.
and sometimes even IRISH, too. With pierced nipples and frontal
lobes.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
While some members of a newsgroup may represent the best of humanity, others
are the worst.
These same members can trade roles from day to day, too. Its a merry
lot. Unhindered by any accountability, they'd gouge out your eyes and
flash their never-you-minds if they could and with binaries groups,
some of them even manage the latter. That ranges between ugly and
boring. It can also lead to some really interesting background pics
for wallpaper.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
They only turn to the computer because there are no puppies nearby. If
there were puppies nearby, they would kill them and then post to Usenet
about it.
Worse yet, Usenet makes puppy-hunting tips readily available. Some
use that information, spread pictures of their horrific handiwork on
the aforementioned binaries groups and then THANK the others for the
help. You can earn a demerit badge in catapaulting as easily as you
can order midget amputee porn with a stolen credit card.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
I've posted on Usenet since 1996, but I have stumbled across very few flame
wars. Most of the time, when I've offended someone, it was my fault.
Oh, I'll bet it wasn't. The more lively sociopaths wake UP offended
and once they've had their coffee, rev up to the usual slashing states
of mind they most prefer. You didn't MAKE the crowd go nuts; you were
just innocently waiting at the doors to see The Who and got caught in
the crush.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
This phenomenon of people going crazy for no apparent reason is relatively
new to me.
How old did you say you were? Usenet is the biggest asylum around
that has no physical Thorazine injections. Under any other conditions,
most of these folks would have received defib paddles to the temples
after the first week.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
What's really scary is that I can see the potential for the same thing
happening in real life.
How old did you say you were again?
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Especially after 9/11, I've seen this type of thing in real life even more
frequently than on Usenet.
Your comment that Usenet IS real life rings true to me, and it chills me to
the bone.
Its only real if you turn the computer on. If you just leave a
blanket over the whole rig, its as safe as C-4 with no electricity in
sight.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
One might call me a "fan" of Bill Palmer. I think he's funny and smart. I
only turn away when he acts like a vicious mad dog.
Then you must spin like the rotor on a Sikorsky Skycrane. Slow down,
you'll hurt your rotator cuff. Would you like a snort of Everclear, a
canape and a bit of Hycodan? It can really take the edge off. I hope
this helps.
--
HellPope Huey, ***@subgenius.com
Slack is a boomerang.
You throw yourself into the task at hand,
the luck comes around back to whack you in the occipitals
and then you lay in a pool of the Slack your work generated.

"This kid is trying to kill me."
"And they say the younger generation doesn't have goals."
- "Babylon 5"

"I've seen this 'Dateline';
that guy sneezes into the meat."
- "King of the Hill"
ROTC Jeep List
2003-09-13 04:56:32 UTC
Permalink
"ROTC Jeep List"
Post by ROTC Jeep List
One would like to think that those people represent some kind of
intellectual elite, but they don't. They are, in fact, mostly mentally ill.
You leave me & my pals out of this! That's a really thin line, but
I'll give you a respectful nod on that one. By the time you've
developed much intellectual capacity, you either go mad to some degree
or develop a cocoon of self-preservation or both. The "both" crowd is
quite amusing. Even my talking dog and alien sidekick think so.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by ROTC Jeep List
They're obsessive, delusional, and psychotic.
and sometimes even IRISH, too. With pierced nipples and frontal
lobes.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
While some members of a newsgroup may represent the best of humanity, others
are the worst.
These same members can trade roles from day to day, too. Its a merry
lot. Unhindered by any accountability, they'd gouge out your eyes and
flash their never-you-minds if they could and with binaries groups,
some of them even manage the latter. That ranges between ugly and
boring. It can also lead to some really interesting background pics
for wallpaper.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
They only turn to the computer because there are no puppies nearby. If
there were puppies nearby, they would kill them and then post to Usenet
about it.
Worse yet, Usenet makes puppy-hunting tips readily available. Some
use that information, spread pictures of their horrific handiwork on
the aforementioned binaries groups and then THANK the others for the
help. You can earn a demerit badge in catapaulting as easily as you
can order midget amputee porn with a stolen credit card.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
I've posted on Usenet since 1996, but I have stumbled across very few flame
wars. Most of the time, when I've offended someone, it was my fault.
Oh, I'll bet it wasn't. The more lively sociopaths wake UP offended
and once they've had their coffee, rev up to the usual slashing states
of mind they most prefer. You didn't MAKE the crowd go nuts; you were
just innocently waiting at the doors to see The Who and got caught in
the crush.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
This phenomenon of people going crazy for no apparent reason is relatively
new to me.
How old did you say you were? Usenet is the biggest asylum around
that has no physical Thorazine injections. Under any other conditions,
most of these folks would have received defib paddles to the temples
after the first week.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
What's really scary is that I can see the potential for the same thing
happening in real life.
How old did you say you were again?
I've been aware of how fucked up the world is for as long as I can remember.
I've just been in deep denial of it. I believed that if I ever accepted
just how fucked up the world really is, I would have no choice but to kill
myself.

I'm just now becoming enlightened enough to acknowledge the vast amount of
suffering I experience. I've spent most of my life either under the
illusion that I was up to something really important or on heavy drugs. I
put a vast amount of effort into shutting myself up and closing my eyes to
the horror around me.

It's amazing how much pain and insanity there is, when you just stop to take
notice of it.

How could anyone live in the world as it is? It's a machine for destroying
happiness. It's a cess-pool. It's an asylum without walls. It's a fucking
nightmare.

All that said, I'm feeling pretty good. To even be capable of admitting how
horrible life is, I think shows real progress. A little more honesty about
how miserable life is, I may even become capable of true happiness.

What really scares me -- what causes my insomnia -- is knowing that the
people I work with are even more insane than I am.

(SELF-FLAME: Quite the hissy fit. Of course, all of this is really
unoriginal and boring. It may be nice to learn what everyone else either
already knows or will learn very soon, but I would like to come up with just
one really original idea -- something nobody has ever thought of before. I
get so frustrated reading the unoriginal crap everyone else churns out, but
I'm still struggling to write something original myself.)
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Especially after 9/11, I've seen this type of thing in real life even more
frequently than on Usenet.
Your comment that Usenet IS real life rings true to me, and it chills me to
the bone.
Its only real if you turn the computer on. If you just leave a
blanket over the whole rig, its as safe as C-4 with no electricity in
sight.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
One might call me a "fan" of Bill Palmer. I think he's funny and smart.
I
Post by ROTC Jeep List
only turn away when he acts like a vicious mad dog.
Then you must spin like the rotor on a Sikorsky Skycrane. Slow down,
you'll hurt your rotator cuff. Would you like a snort of Everclear, a
canape and a bit of Hycodan? It can really take the edge off. I hope
this helps.
--
Slack is a boomerang.
You throw yourself into the task at hand,
the luck comes around back to whack you in the occipitals
and then you lay in a pool of the Slack your work generated.
"This kid is trying to kill me."
"And they say the younger generation doesn't have goals."
- "Babylon 5"
"I've seen this 'Dateline';
that guy sneezes into the meat."
- "King of the Hill"
--









http://rotcjeeplist.blogspot.com
ROTC Jeep List
2003-09-13 05:07:45 UTC
Permalink
"ROTC Jeep List"
Post by ROTC Jeep List
"ROTC Jeep List"
Post by ROTC Jeep List
One would like to think that those people represent some kind of
intellectual elite, but they don't. They are, in fact, mostly mentally
ill.
You leave me & my pals out of this! That's a really thin line, but
I'll give you a respectful nod on that one. By the time you've
developed much intellectual capacity, you either go mad to some degree
or develop a cocoon of self-preservation or both. The "both" crowd is
quite amusing. Even my talking dog and alien sidekick think so.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by ROTC Jeep List
They're obsessive, delusional, and psychotic.
and sometimes even IRISH, too. With pierced nipples and frontal
lobes.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
While some members of a newsgroup may represent the best of humanity,
others
Post by ROTC Jeep List
are the worst.
These same members can trade roles from day to day, too. Its a merry
lot. Unhindered by any accountability, they'd gouge out your eyes and
flash their never-you-minds if they could and with binaries groups,
some of them even manage the latter. That ranges between ugly and
boring. It can also lead to some really interesting background pics
for wallpaper.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
They only turn to the computer because there are no puppies nearby.
If
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by ROTC Jeep List
there were puppies nearby, they would kill them and then post to Usenet
about it.
Worse yet, Usenet makes puppy-hunting tips readily available. Some
use that information, spread pictures of their horrific handiwork on
the aforementioned binaries groups and then THANK the others for the
help. You can earn a demerit badge in catapaulting as easily as you
can order midget amputee porn with a stolen credit card.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
I've posted on Usenet since 1996, but I have stumbled across very few
flame
Post by ROTC Jeep List
wars. Most of the time, when I've offended someone, it was my fault.
Oh, I'll bet it wasn't. The more lively sociopaths wake UP offended
and once they've had their coffee, rev up to the usual slashing states
of mind they most prefer. You didn't MAKE the crowd go nuts; you were
just innocently waiting at the doors to see The Who and got caught in
the crush.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
This phenomenon of people going crazy for no apparent reason is
relatively
Post by ROTC Jeep List
new to me.
How old did you say you were? Usenet is the biggest asylum around
that has no physical Thorazine injections. Under any other conditions,
most of these folks would have received defib paddles to the temples
after the first week.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
What's really scary is that I can see the potential for the same thing
happening in real life.
How old did you say you were again?
I've been aware of how fucked up the world is for as long as I can remember.
I've just been in deep denial of it. I believed that if I ever accepted
just how fucked up the world really is, I would have no choice but to kill
myself.
I'm just now becoming enlightened enough to acknowledge the vast amount of
suffering I experience. I've spent most of my life either under the
illusion that I was up to something really important or on heavy drugs. I
put a vast amount of effort into shutting myself up and closing my eyes to
the horror around me.
It's amazing how much pain and insanity there is, when you just stop to take
notice of it.
How could anyone live in the world as it is? It's a machine for destroying
happiness. It's a cess-pool. It's an asylum without walls. It's a fucking
nightmare.
All that said, I'm feeling pretty good. To even be capable of admitting how
horrible life is, I think shows real progress. A little more honesty about
how miserable life is, I may even become capable of true happiness.
What really scares me -- what causes my insomnia -- is knowing that the
people I work with are even more insane than I am.
(SELF-FLAME: Quite the hissy fit. Of course, all of this is really
unoriginal and boring.
You've got that right!
Post by ROTC Jeep List
It may be nice to learn what everyone else either
already knows or will learn very soon, but I would like to come up with just
one really original idea -- something nobody has ever thought of before.
Redundant much?
Post by ROTC Jeep List
I
get so frustrated reading the unoriginal crap everyone else churns out, but
I'm still struggling to write something original myself.)
Just give up. You suck!
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Especially after 9/11, I've seen this type of thing in real life even
more
Post by ROTC Jeep List
frequently than on Usenet.
Your comment that Usenet IS real life rings true to me, and it chills
me
Post by ROTC Jeep List
to
Post by ROTC Jeep List
the bone.
Its only real if you turn the computer on. If you just leave a
blanket over the whole rig, its as safe as C-4 with no electricity in
sight.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
One might call me a "fan" of Bill Palmer. I think he's funny and smart.
I
Post by ROTC Jeep List
only turn away when he acts like a vicious mad dog.
Then you must spin like the rotor on a Sikorsky Skycrane. Slow down,
you'll hurt your rotator cuff. Would you like a snort of Everclear, a
canape and a bit of Hycodan? It can really take the edge off. I hope
this helps.
--
Slack is a boomerang.
You throw yourself into the task at hand,
the luck comes around back to whack you in the occipitals
and then you lay in a pool of the Slack your work generated.
"This kid is trying to kill me."
"And they say the younger generation doesn't have goals."
- "Babylon 5"
"I've seen this 'Dateline';
that guy sneezes into the meat."
- "King of the Hill"
--
http://rotcjeeplist.blogspot.com
Rotcod Eman
2003-09-21 06:32:33 UTC
Permalink
Just reading these posts so far, it seems that a few ppl have a blue bronco
as their second vehicle...

I wonder if they ever gona get a burnin cross to sit nicely as a hood
ornament? (perhaps the pyrotechnics guys can come up with something? or
maybe some fibre will simulate it?)

But wait a sec, isnt blue a colour? and isn't colour too much reality
(heresy) for a black and white world.... maybe they were in white bronco's?
Or perhaps blue is really pale blue, and thats close enough to white in the
dark?

Oops.... damn, I didnt know I was prejudiced about the biased haters. Is
having fun at their expense so bad? After all its an institution and not a
person, so there is nothing to take personally, unless of course you drive a
white bronco and go to klan meetings...lol

--
Peace & Goodwill
Treat Others with Respect and be Respected

Dr E
ROTC Jeep List
2003-09-21 06:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rotcod Eman
Just reading these posts so far, it seems that a few ppl have a blue bronco
as their second vehicle...
I wonder if they ever gona get a burnin cross to sit nicely as a hood
ornament? (perhaps the pyrotechnics guys can come up with something? or
maybe some fibre will simulate it?)
But wait a sec, isnt blue a colour? and isn't colour too much reality
(heresy) for a black and white world.... maybe they were in white bronco's?
Or perhaps blue is really pale blue, and thats close enough to white in the
dark?
Oops.... damn, I didnt know I was prejudiced about the biased haters. Is
having fun at their expense so bad? After all its an institution and not a
person, so there is nothing to take personally, unless of course you drive a
white bronco and go to klan meetings...lol
--
Peace & Goodwill
Treat Others with Respect and be Respected
Dr E
LMFAO

I agree with this 100%. I just want to reiterate that Rotcod is speaking
metaphorically. I've had a good experience in the writing groups overall,
but it seems that too many Usenet posters interpret comments on a purely 4th
grade reading level.
jonny bravo
2003-09-13 05:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by HellPopeHuey
Post by ROTC Jeep List
They're obsessive, delusional, and psychotic.
and sometimes even IRISH, too. With pierced nipples and frontal
lobes.
Hey wait...I wasn't even gonna let on that I was Irish...


Would you like a snort of Everclear, a
Post by HellPopeHuey
canape and a bit of Hycodan? It can really take the edge off. I hope
this helps.
YES YES AND YES, It's gonna be a long weekend.....
--
Jonny Bravo
Some Do, Some Don't, Some Will, Some Won't...I Might...
http://www.boneheadgrafix.com





---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/2/2003
Wbarwell
2003-09-13 10:38:37 UTC
Permalink
"ROTC Jeep
Post by ROTC Jeep List
They only turn to the computer because there are no puppies nearby. If
there were puppies nearby, they would kill them and then post to Usenet
about it.
Worse yet, Usenet makes puppy-hunting tips readily available. Some
use that information, spread pictures of their horrific handiwork on
the aforementioned binaries groups and then THANK the others for the
help. You can earn a demerit badge in catapaulting as easily as you
can order midget amputee porn with a stolen credit card.
I really like the webbed recipes for spatchcocked puppy with mint sauce
and Iraqi style cous-cous. This is what Bush wants to serve at his
inaugeration ball in January 2004.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
ghost
2003-09-13 14:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wbarwell
I really like the webbed recipes for spatchcocked puppy with mint sauce
and Iraqi style cous-cous. This is what Bush wants to serve at his
inaugeration ball in January 2004.
The inauguration will be in Jan. 2005.
Alliekatt
2003-09-13 02:47:55 UTC
Permalink
If real life was like Usenet I'd have a house on a hill with an m-60 cocked,
ready, and aiming out of every window, with multiple 3000 watt speakers at
all 4 corners of the outside of my house, and a microphone on the roof from
which I would sometimes dictate the wisdom of the Dalai Lama, and sometimes
stupid gibberish, until I got bored, and proceeded to karmically firebomb
the valley below me after selling all their souls to Satan without their
knowledge. Then I would sit in the silence and wait for another bunch of
idiots to resettle and build a mall.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/03
lizard
2003-09-13 06:06:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alliekatt
If real life was like Usenet I'd have a house on a hill with an m-60 cocked,
ready, and aiming out of every window, with multiple 3000 watt speakers at
all 4 corners of the outside of my house, and a microphone on the roof from
which I would sometimes dictate the wisdom of the Dalai Lama, and sometimes
stupid gibberish, until I got bored, and proceeded to karmically firebomb
the valley below me after selling all their souls to Satan without their
knowledge. Then I would sit in the silence and wait for another bunch of
idiots to resettle and build a mall.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/03
So, who preyed on your paradigm!
HellPopeHuey
2003-09-13 15:21:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alliekatt
If real life was like Usenet I'd have a house on a hill with an m-60 cocked,
ready, and aiming out of every window, with multiple 3000 watt speakers at
all 4 corners of the outside of my house, and a microphone on the roof from
which I would sometimes dictate the wisdom of the Dalai Lama, and sometimes
stupid gibberish, until I got bored, and proceeded to karmically firebomb
the valley below me after selling all their souls to Satan without their
knowledge. Then I would sit in the silence and wait for another bunch of
idiots to resettle and build a mall.
That sounds really SWELL! If I bring some really punchy world techno
CDs, some Nepalese Temple Balls, a box of empanadas and a barrel of
Guiness Stout, can I come to visit? I'd love a turn at the mic, too. I
rant like a snakehandler unfettered by silly Xistian beliefs, so I can
be a real hoot.
--
HellPope Huey, ***@subgenius.com
going over about as well as a transvestite floor show
at a VFW meeting.

"Why declare that things shall not be done by the government
which there is no power for it to do?
It is evident that it would only furnish, to men disposed to
usurp,
a plausible pretense for claiming that power."
- Alexander Hamilton

I'm not above the law, I'm beyond it.
- George Carlin
Alliekatt
2003-09-13 23:11:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by HellPopeHuey
Post by Alliekatt
If real life was like Usenet I'd have a house on a hill with an m-60 cocked,
ready, and aiming out of every window, with multiple 3000 watt speakers at
all 4 corners of the outside of my house, and a microphone on the roof from
which I would sometimes dictate the wisdom of the Dalai Lama, and sometimes
stupid gibberish, until I got bored, and proceeded to karmically firebomb
the valley below me after selling all their souls to Satan without their
knowledge. Then I would sit in the silence and wait for another bunch of
idiots to resettle and build a mall.
That sounds really SWELL! If I bring some really punchy world techno
CDs, some Nepalese Temple Balls, a box of empanadas and a barrel of
Guiness Stout, can I come to visit? I'd love a turn at the mic, too. I
rant like a snakehandler unfettered by silly Xistian beliefs, so I can
be a real hoot.
Anytime. I'll break out the 25 year old single malt scotch, yak butter tea,
and french ticklers.

alliekatt


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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/03
HellPopeHuey
2003-09-14 17:38:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alliekatt
Anytime. I'll break out the 25 year old single malt scotch, yak butter tea,
and french ticklers.
Hell, what if even real life was like real life? Ah, let the French
tickle themselves. They're almost as rude as we are and they'll just
get all snippy once we are roaring and laughing. Besides, they can't
write a rollicking song to save their lives, they don't put enough
sugar in their pastries and their women are all bony from eating one
scone a year. Gimme a lively, plump Irish gal any day, EIEIEIEIE!!!!
--
HellPope Huey, ***@subgenius.com
Pardon my absinthe, the meth
and all there's no time to drink of.

"Plop-plop" isn't quite correct.
It would be more accurate to say,
'I spent the afternoon
giving anal birth to a series of Brillo pads.'"
- Ay Eye

If it doesn't make your cat vomit,
you're not trying hard enough.
- Joe Cosby
Alliekatt
2003-09-14 21:54:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by HellPopeHuey
Post by Alliekatt
Anytime. I'll break out the 25 year old single malt scotch, yak butter tea,
and french ticklers.
Hell, what if even real life was like real life? Ah, let the French
tickle themselves. They're almost as rude as we are and they'll just
get all snippy once we are roaring and laughing. Besides, they can't
write a rollicking song to save their lives, they don't put enough
sugar in their pastries and their women are all bony from eating one
scone a year. Gimme a lively, plump Irish gal any day, EIEIEIEIE!!!!
Ahh ya just like me for my lobes. I can tell when a man has a brain
fixation. Instead of french ticklers, I'll bring one cup of a 56G studded
leather bra and wear it on my head. I know, I'm an awful tease.


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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/03
HellPopeHuey
2003-09-15 01:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alliekatt
Ahh ya just like me for my lobes. I can tell when a man has a brain
fixation.
Hey, a woman WITHOUT them is just a brief bit o' meat pie.

Instead of french ticklers, I'll bring one cup of a 56G studded
Post by Alliekatt
leather bra and wear it on my head. I know, I'm an awful tease.
Me too, but no one has stood in line for a turn at my tits
since...um, well, actually, last Wednesday. Rock, paper, scissors,
clits, high-pitched monkey screams of pleasure, half a bottle of
massage oil later and I'm grinnin' like a 3rd World dicktater with a
toilet brush hairdo. Um, is this actually prose? Maybe prose for
Connie, EIEIEIEIE!!!
--
HellPope Huey, ***@subgenius.com
Pardon my absinthe, the meth
and all there's no time to drink of.

"Plop-plop" isn't quite correct.
It would be more accurate to say,
'I spent the afternoon
giving anal birth to a series of Brillo pads.'"
- Ay Eye

If it doesn't make your cat vomit,
you're not trying hard enough.
- Joe Cosby
s***@aol.com
2003-09-13 03:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Palmer
It is not "like Usenet," it IS Usenet.
the-funny-little-wilhelp-man
"Now posting from inside your computer."
Official Entertainer to the Net Kooks
Hey! Bill Palmer finally said something that I agree with; at least in
part.

Life requires what is often referred to as a "veneer of civilization",
a mask, in order to lubricate the mechanisms of our interaction with
each other. Without that mask, friction would make all social
interaction impossible.

Every adult, with the exception of those who are intellectually or
emotionally abnormal, wears this protective mask; it is as essential
to us as food, water and shelter. It protects us both from attacking,
(and society's consequences for such a course of action), and being
attacked. Usenet lets us interact without that mask; it allows others
to glimpse our real personality. We don't have to keep up the pretence
when we are anonymous.

Have you ever wondered about the increased incidence of various
"rages"? People are losing control, suddenly and violently in all
manner of situations.

Road rage was the first commonly noticed and discussed. Since then,
the "rage" label has been applied to many other occupations or
pastimes. The rise in various "rage" incidences coincides, perhaps no
more than coincidentally, with the rise in usegroup use and violent
first person video games.

I don't believe that any of this *is* coincidence. I think that it is
the result of blurring of the borders between virtual and real life
and that as more people experience usenet the ability for them to
respond appropriately in society will diminish.

Add to that scenario the loss of respect for Government, family, and
traditional authority figures and you have modern society and the path
it is on.

Sean
Ultraviolet
2003-09-13 06:11:53 UTC
Permalink
The bell tolls for ***@aol.com:

<>
Post by s***@aol.com
Life requires what is often referred to as a "veneer of civilization",
a mask, in order to lubricate the mechanisms of our interaction with
each other. Without that mask, friction would make all social
interaction impossible.
Every adult, with the exception of those who are intellectually or
emotionally abnormal, wears this protective mask; it is as essential
to us as food, water and shelter. It protects us both from attacking,
(and society's consequences for such a course of action), and being
attacked. Usenet lets us interact without that mask; it allows others
to glimpse our real personality. We don't have to keep up the pretence
when we are anonymous.
Except for the peeps who deliberately don a mask to interact on usenet.
They exist, so there goes your theory.
Post by s***@aol.com
Have you ever wondered about the increased incidence of various
"rages"? People are losing control, suddenly and violently in all
manner of situations.
Road rage was the first commonly noticed and discussed. Since then,
the "rage" label has been applied to many other occupations or
pastimes. The rise in various "rage" incidences coincides, perhaps no
more than coincidentally, with the rise in usegroup use and violent
first person video games.
Videogames, sure <waves to Scott and Lorrill>, but most people have never
even heard of newsgroups.
Post by s***@aol.com
I don't believe that any of this *is* coincidence. I think that it is
the result of blurring of the borders between virtual and real life
and that as more people experience usenet the ability for them to
respond appropriately in society will diminish.
Hmmm. Going with an anecdotal example of one, your reasoning is faulty.
Post by s***@aol.com
Add to that scenario the loss of respect for Government, family, and
traditional authority figures and you have modern society and the path
it is on.
We've got trouble right here in Cyber City?
--
UV
s***@aol.com
2003-09-13 09:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ultraviolet
<>
Post by s***@aol.com
Life requires what is often referred to as a "veneer of civilization",
a mask, in order to lubricate the mechanisms of our interaction with
each other. Without that mask, friction would make all social
interaction impossible.
Every adult, with the exception of those who are intellectually or
emotionally abnormal, wears this protective mask; it is as essential
to us as food, water and shelter. It protects us both from attacking,
(and society's consequences for such a course of action), and being
attacked. Usenet lets us interact without that mask; it allows others
to glimpse our real personality. We don't have to keep up the pretence
when we are anonymous.
Except for the peeps who deliberately don a mask to interact on usenet.
They exist, so there goes your theory.
No, they don't "don a mask" they turn themselves loose.

They may disguise themselves, but it still is their "wannabe" nature
that shine through. You will not get someone who is genuinely gentle
and considerate in nature donning the mask of an abusive and obnoxious
person, but you might get someone who has had to "play" gentle and
considerate doing so.
Post by Ultraviolet
Post by s***@aol.com
Have you ever wondered about the increased incidence of various
"rages"? People are losing control, suddenly and violently in all
manner of situations.
Road rage was the first commonly noticed and discussed. Since then,
the "rage" label has been applied to many other occupations or
pastimes. The rise in various "rage" incidences coincides, perhaps no
more than coincidentally, with the rise in usegroup use and violent
first person video games.
Videogames, sure <waves to Scott and Lorrill>, but most people have never
even heard of newsgroups.
You are right, but those that have usenet experience interact with
those that haven't and set examples. The per capita figures quoted
for internet access are not a true guide as to usenet and chat room
experience in the general population, but try and find a school kid
who isn't familiar. It is in our younger population that these violent
trends are most apparent.
Post by Ultraviolet
Post by s***@aol.com
I don't believe that any of this *is* coincidence. I think that it is
the result of blurring of the borders between virtual and real life
and that as more people experience usenet the ability for them to
respond appropriately in society will diminish.
Hmmm. Going with an anecdotal example of one, your reasoning is faulty.
It might be, I may be completely off track, but *something* has
changed in the way people relate to each other, particularly young
people. The change *appears* to coincide with internet penetration;
with a lag of course. I have no empirical data either, but I have a
lot more than one anecdotal experience to support my feeling.

Two years ago, in a road rage incident, a seventeen year old youth
rammed another driver off the road and drove off. He was apprehended
and in his pre-trial statement read to the court, he said that he had
been tired and also that he had been playing a game called
"Carmageddon" where you win by smashing your opponents off the road. He said that for a moment he forgot he was driving a real car and
responded as though he was in the game. That is only one incident but
there are many more. Look at the increasing number of teenagers arming
themselves and going on DukeNukem/Doom style killing sprees. Where has
that come from? I think that they have become desensitized to both
death and the suffering of others.
Post by Ultraviolet
Post by s***@aol.com
Add to that scenario the loss of respect for Government, family, and
traditional authority figures and you have modern society and the path
it is on.
We've got trouble right here in Cyber City?
Nah, we're safe here, it is in real life that the projectiles hurt. On
the other hand there was an incident reported in Australian papers a
month or so ago where several men broke into an apartment, tied up the
occupants, doused them with petrol and threatened to set fire to them
if they made a sound. They waited for the remaining occupant to
return, grabbed him, held him down and hacked his fingers off with an
axe. Initially police were puzzled as to motive, then stated that they
knew the motive but wouldn't go public with it. A couple of weeks
later, a relative of the injured man claimed that it was in
retaliation for remarks that the man had made during a flame war on
usenet.

The man who lost his fingers was a musician working in a gay bar and
was very outspoken on usenet, although quite unremarkable in a physical
sense, in real life. They managed to reattach most of his fingers but
I haven't heard any more about it. Perhaps some of the Aussie posters
here might know.

It would seem wise to remain anonymous if you wish to express
unpopular opinions on usenet.

Sean
ROTC Jeep List
2003-09-13 10:44:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@aol.com
Post by Ultraviolet
<>
Post by s***@aol.com
Life requires what is often referred to as a "veneer of civilization",
a mask, in order to lubricate the mechanisms of our interaction with
each other. Without that mask, friction would make all social
interaction impossible.
Every adult, with the exception of those who are intellectually or
emotionally abnormal, wears this protective mask; it is as essential
to us as food, water and shelter. It protects us both from attacking,
(and society's consequences for such a course of action), and being
attacked. Usenet lets us interact without that mask; it allows others
to glimpse our real personality. We don't have to keep up the pretence
when we are anonymous.
Except for the peeps who deliberately don a mask to interact on usenet.
They exist, so there goes your theory.
No, they don't "don a mask" they turn themselves loose.
They may disguise themselves, but it still is their "wannabe" nature
that shine through. You will not get someone who is genuinely gentle
and considerate in nature donning the mask of an abusive and obnoxious
person, but you might get someone who has had to "play" gentle and
considerate doing so.
Post by Ultraviolet
Post by s***@aol.com
Have you ever wondered about the increased incidence of various
"rages"? People are losing control, suddenly and violently in all
manner of situations.
Road rage was the first commonly noticed and discussed. Since then,
the "rage" label has been applied to many other occupations or
pastimes. The rise in various "rage" incidences coincides, perhaps no
more than coincidentally, with the rise in usegroup use and violent
first person video games.
Videogames, sure <waves to Scott and Lorrill>, but most people have never
even heard of newsgroups.
You are right, but those that have usenet experience interact with
those that haven't and set examples. The per capita figures quoted
for internet access are not a true guide as to usenet and chat room
experience in the general population, but try and find a school kid
who isn't familiar. It is in our younger population that these violent
trends are most apparent.
Post by Ultraviolet
Post by s***@aol.com
I don't believe that any of this *is* coincidence. I think that it is
the result of blurring of the borders between virtual and real life
and that as more people experience usenet the ability for them to
respond appropriately in society will diminish.
Hmmm. Going with an anecdotal example of one, your reasoning is faulty.
It might be, I may be completely off track, but *something* has
changed in the way people relate to each other, particularly young
people. The change *appears* to coincide with internet penetration;
with a lag of course. I have no empirical data either, but I have a
lot more than one anecdotal experience to support my feeling.
Two years ago, in a road rage incident, a seventeen year old youth
rammed another driver off the road and drove off. He was apprehended
and in his pre-trial statement read to the court, he said that he had
been tired and also that he had been playing a game called
"Carmageddon" where you win by smashing your opponents off the road. He
said that for a moment he forgot he was driving a real car and
Post by s***@aol.com
responded as though he was in the game. That is only one incident but
there are many more. Look at the increasing number of teenagers arming
themselves and going on DukeNukem/Doom style killing sprees. Where has
that come from? I think that they have become desensitized to both
death and the suffering of others.
Post by Ultraviolet
Post by s***@aol.com
Add to that scenario the loss of respect for Government, family, and
traditional authority figures and you have modern society and the path
it is on.
We've got trouble right here in Cyber City?
Nah, we're safe here, it is in real life that the projectiles hurt. On
the other hand there was an incident reported in Australian papers a
month or so ago where several men broke into an apartment, tied up the
occupants, doused them with petrol and threatened to set fire to them
if they made a sound. They waited for the remaining occupant to
return, grabbed him, held him down and hacked his fingers off with an
axe. Initially police were puzzled as to motive, then stated that they
knew the motive but wouldn't go public with it. A couple of weeks
later, a relative of the injured man claimed that it was in
retaliation for remarks that the man had made during a flame war on
usenet.
Jesus Christ! That's terrifying!

I make tongue-in-cheek "threats" all the time, but to even think that anyone
could do that sort of thing... Just tonight, I sent a phony address to
someone and dared him to come fight me. Now I'm gonna have nightmares about
some elderly couple getting murdered because I provoked a psycho. Christ...
That guy could be thinking I'm gonna track him down and kill him.

This sounds like serious urban legend material, but it's damn scary
nonetheless. Just two nights ago, I had a nightmare in which I was tied to
a pole and my fingers were cut off with bolt clippers. I had a nightmare
last month in which I was placed in thumb cuffs which were then heated until
they turned red and burned my thumbs off.

The only thing more frightening to me is the thought of accidentally killing
someone. I haven't hit anyone in the face since high school because I
somehow started to believe that anyone I punched in the face would die.
(Maybe that came from playing too many violent video games.) I just grapple
and try to make the opponent submit without hurting him.
Post by s***@aol.com
The man who lost his fingers was a musician working in a gay bar and
was very outspoken on usenet, although quite unremarkable in a physical
sense, in real life. They managed to reattach most of his fingers but
I haven't heard any more about it. Perhaps some of the Aussie posters
here might know.
It would seem wise to remain anonymous if you wish to express
unpopular opinions on usenet.
Sean
--



Reccomended by Doctor Mom.
http://rotcjeeplist.blogspot.com
s***@aol.com
2003-09-13 12:25:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@aol.com
Nah, we're safe here, it is in real life that the projectiles hurt. On
the other hand there was an incident reported in Australian papers a
month or so ago where several men broke into an apartment, tied up the
occupants, doused them with petrol and threatened to set fire to them
if they made a sound. They waited for the remaining occupant to
return, grabbed him, held him down and hacked his fingers off with an
axe. Initially police were puzzled as to motive, then stated that they
knew the motive but wouldn't go public with it. A couple of weeks
later, a relative of the injured man claimed t
s***@aol.com
2003-09-13 13:33:03 UTC
Permalink
I don't know what happened there, half the post is missing. I'll try again.
Post by s***@aol.com
Nah, we're safe here, it is in real life that the projectiles hurt. On
the other hand there was an incident reported in Australian papers a
month or so ago where several men broke into an apartment, tied up the
occupants, doused them with petrol and threatened to set fire to them
if they made a sound. They waited for the remaining occupant to
return, grabbed him, held him down and hacked his fingers off with an
axe. Initially police were puzzled as to motive, then stated that they
knew the motive but wouldn't go public w
s***@aol.com
2003-09-13 13:49:07 UTC
Permalink
I don't know what happened there, half the post is missing.
I'll try once more.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by s***@aol.com
Nah, we're safe here, it is in real life that the projectiles hurt.
On the other hand there was an incident reported in Australian papers a
month or so ago where several men broke into an apartment, tied up the
occupants, doused them with petrol and threatened to set fire to them
if they made a sound. They waited for the remaining occupant to
return, grabbed him, held him down and hacked his fingers off with an
axe. Initially police were puzzled as to motive, then stated that they
knew the motive but wouldn't go public with it. A couple of weeks
later, a relative of the injured man claimed that it was in
retaliation for remarks that the man had made during a flame war on
usenet.
Jesus Christ! That's terrifying!
I make tongue-in-cheek "threats" all the time, but to even think that anyone
could do that sort of thing... Just tonight, I sent a phony address to
someone and dared him to come fight me. Now I'm gonna have nightmares about
some elderly couple getting murdered because I provoked a psycho. Christ...
That guy could be thinking I'm gonna track him down and kill him.
This sounds like serious urban legend material, but it's damn scary
nonetheless.
No, real and front page headline material. I got it from a news
limited site, it will still be available but may require membership or
a search fee. It was earlier than I thought; late July.

He is a report from another Australian news site.

http://tinyurl.com/n85w

It took nearly three weeks for the Police to work out that it was
related to a long series of threats and counter threats on internet
newsgroups. They caught the offenders last week.

Maybe there is already an internet troll retaliation trend and this is
the reason for some of the violent unsolved crimes where the Police
have been unable to find a credible motive.

"He didn't have an enemy in the world..." are the usual quotes.

Perhaps the enemies were in a cyberworld and they tracked the victim
down. It is all so unlikely that the Police wouldn't consider it
plausible. They wouldn't look. They will in a year or two, it will
become common as the anger generated on line spills into the real
world.

Sean

"I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes
several days sneak up on me at once."
ROTC Jeep List
2003-09-13 19:24:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@aol.com
I don't know what happened there, half the post is missing.
I'll try once more.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by s***@aol.com
Nah, we're safe here, it is in real life that the projectiles hurt.
On the other hand there was an incident reported in Australian papers a
month or so ago where several men broke into an apartment, tied up the
occupants, doused them with petrol and threatened to set fire to them
if they made a sound. They waited for the remaining occupant to
return, grabbed him, held him down and hacked his fingers off with an
axe. Initially police were puzzled as to motive, then stated that they
knew the motive but wouldn't go public with it. A couple of weeks
later, a relative of the injured man claimed that it was in
retaliation for remarks that the man had made during a flame war on
usenet.
Jesus Christ! That's terrifying!
I make tongue-in-cheek "threats" all the time, but to even think that anyone
could do that sort of thing... Just tonight, I sent a phony address to
someone and dared him to come fight me. Now I'm gonna have nightmares about
some elderly couple getting murdered because I provoked a psycho.
Christ...
Post by s***@aol.com
Post by ROTC Jeep List
That guy could be thinking I'm gonna track him down and kill him.
This sounds like serious urban legend material, but it's damn scary
nonetheless.
No, real and front page headline material. I got it from a news
limited site, it will still be available but may require membership or
a search fee. It was earlier than I thought; late July.
I wasn't questioning the truth of what you wrote, just the sensationalism.
I was skeptically thinking, There must be some other explanation. Maybe the
guy really provoked someone, or it was all a misunderstanding... That kind
of thing. The urban legend factor is that anyone could be the victim. It's
a perfect story to tell someone who mouths off online too much.
Post by s***@aol.com
He is a report from another Australian news site.
http://tinyurl.com/n85w
It took nearly three weeks for the Police to work out that it was
related to a long series of threats and counter threats on internet
newsgroups. They caught the offenders last week.
This from the linked article is the kind of thing I was expecting (or hoping
for):

Investigators have found no evidence to suggest the university music student
was involved in any activities that might have triggered the brutal assault
in his Brisbane home last month.
It is believed police think Mr Evans was set up by someone trying to shift
the blame away from their own activities. The attackers thought they had the
right man but Mr Evans was innocent.


This article speculates about other motives:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,6802960,00.html

Police were investigating if it was a professional "hit" for an outstanding
debt.

...

Phil Evans worked as a barman at the Wickham Hotel in the inner suburb of
Fortitude Valley, an area which is still known for its high crime rate,
especially for drug dealing and prostitution.


Then I found this on Usenet:

Midday.
Bris. Police have revealed what they believe is the motive for an
attack in which a man's fingers were severed with an axe in an
apparently random attack. DI Ben Hanbidge says an arrest warrant has
been issued for a 28 yo man who allegedly led the attack on Jul 21.
It's reported 20 yo saxophonist Phil Evans may have been randomly
selected by the arrested suspect in a scheme to blame someone else for
the suspect's debts. DI Hanbidge believes there is no connection
between the suspect and Mr Evans.


Finally, I found this under the terms "Phil Evans" AND "arrest":
http://au.news.yahoo.com/030722/2/kyg1.html

It is believed Mr Evans may have been attacked as part of an elaborate
scheme to blame somebody else for a debt incurred by the arrested man.

Insp Hanbidge said the arrested man had been interviewed and was facing "a
whole swag" of charges, including assault with intent to maim, torture,
grievous bodily harm and enter a premises with intent.


I don't doubt you read an article that stated the attack was provoked by an
Internet flame war. I'm just a little skeptical because that story is so
sensational. It's definitely the version of the story that people will pass
on as an urban legend, whether it's true or not.
Post by s***@aol.com
Maybe there is already an internet troll retaliation trend and this is
the reason for some of the violent unsolved crimes where the Police
have been unable to find a credible motive.
"He didn't have an enemy in the world..." are the usual quotes.
Perhaps the enemies were in a cyberworld and they tracked the victim
down. It is all so unlikely that the Police wouldn't consider it
plausible. They wouldn't look. They will in a year or two, it will
become common as the anger generated on line spills into the real
world.
This is plausible. It would definitely make a good premise for fiction, and
it may even be true.

There's still nothing wrong with using the Phil Evans case as an example. I
know I'm spooked. ^_^
Post by s***@aol.com
Sean
"I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes
several days sneak up on me at once."
--








http://rotcjeeplist.blogspot.com
Alan Hope
2003-09-14 00:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@aol.com
Maybe there is already an internet troll retaliation trend and this is
the reason for some of the violent unsolved crimes where the Police
have been unable to find a credible motive.
Buster, maybe you should quit snooping around and pursue another line
of enquiry, know what I'm saying? Be a shame if something were to
happen to that pert, coquettish nose you have there. Like if you was
to lose it. That'd be a shame, wouldn't it, Lenny?

Lenny agrees with me.
--
AH
Bill Palmer
2003-09-13 15:05:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@aol.com
Have you ever wondered about the increased incidence of various
"rages"? People are losing control, suddenly and violently in all
manner of situations.
Road rage was the first commonly noticed and discussed. Since then,
the "rage" label has been applied to many other occupations or
pastimes. The rise in various "rage" incidences coincides, perhaps no
more than coincidentally, with the rise in usegroup use and violent
first person video games.
Some of your remarks are sensible, but there's
where you veer sharply off track. If you look
at the violence in society, most people committing
it have never posted to Usenet, and probably have
never heard of it. Many of them would not have
the brains to find Usenet if they wanted to.
And, as I pointed out in a post yesterday, even
in those cases where someone with a Usenet history
went out and did something terrible, it turned
out that they were near Usenet non-entities, So
much so that it actually might be concluded
without too much of a stretch that we should
beware of people with a skimpy posting style!

For instance, I recall that vicious nut case
back east who took a gun to work and killed
a number of his fellow workers. Some people
in Usenet made a big deal about this jerk's
having posted to Usenet. Yet, the fact was that
his posting history was so skimpy that nothing
about him came through at all. He was a blob
in Usenet just as he was in real life, according
to what came out at the trial. I suspect that
he had too much bottled up inside him to allow
him to release his creative potential and
really become a contributing part of the Usenet
thoughtstream.

And again, just look closer at the current
violence in society. We just had a horrible
case in L. A. where these gang-banging jokers
shot three wonderful kids in front of a high
school. Do you actually think any of the
gun-crazy creeps behind that ever made a
Usenet post? (I'm sure we could add hundreds
more cases of violence, just from the past few
weeks, across the country, where it is very
unlikely that the perpetrators ever
heard of, let alone used, Usenet. And,
to repeat, in the very rare cases where
they have, they have had very marginal
net histories anyway. (We might add
Taliban Johnny: his Usenet history was
actually very skimpy too.)

As far as video games, I am skeptical about
your inferences there too. Of course, I have
studied Dr. Fred Wertham's anti-crime and
horror comic crusade in the early 1950's
and you probably know nothing about that.
Wertham, at one time a respected psychiatrist,
made himself famous with his war against
comic books, which he was convinced
were responsible for the rising rate of
delinquency in the U. S., which began to
cllimb after World War II. Yet, after
Wertham (in 1955) got the biggest and most
powerful comic book distributors to agree to
very tough form of self-censorship which put
crime and horror comics out of business, did
juvenile delinquency decline? Not at all--
it shot upward (in the late 1950's).
So, when I hear all this stuff about video
games and violence, I think about Fred
Wertham and his anti-comic crusade.

All in all, I have to conclude that you
haven't really thought through your
conclusions. In fact, I believe most of
the violence today stems from the same
things that caused it when Dr. Wertham was
waging his strange war on comic books:
ignorance, alcohol, drugs, easy availability
of guns, mental disease, and destructive
situations in homes when children are
growing up.


the alt.genius.bill-palmer
--posting from an office high
above rec.arts.poems while wearing
a cape and mask.
s***@aol.com
2003-09-13 17:09:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Palmer
Some of your remarks are sensible, but there's
where you veer sharply off track. If you look
at the violence in society, most people committing
it have never posted to Usenet, and probably have
never heard of it.
You do seem to be out of touch with the younger generation if you
believe that most of them would not have heard of usenet. I doubt that
there is a high school in the western world that hasn't had computers
and internet access for quite some years. I really believe that you
would have trouble finding anyone under twenty who isn't familiar with
computers, internet, computer games, Sony Playstations, Nintendo
Gameboys and more modern things like X-box etc.
Post by Bill Palmer
Many of them would not have
the brains to find Usenet if they wanted to.
That is a ridiculous and ill considered statement. Kids have more
internet/usenet knowledge than you do. They just don't happen to have
an interest in that small section of usenet that you frequent.
Post by Bill Palmer
And, as I pointed out in a post yesterday, even
in those cases where someone with a Usenet history
went out and did something terrible, it turned
out that they were near Usenet non-entities,
What is a "usenet non-entity" ? Someone that you haven't personally
heard of or had contact with?
Post by Bill Palmer
So
much so that it actually might be concluded
without too much of a stretch that we should
beware of people with a skimpy posting style!
Ok, let's test this. How much usenet experience do you think that I
have? What is *my* posting style? How can you possibly tell?

I came back here a few days ago using a new nick, you have no idea who
I am, where I come from, nor how many times I have posted in the past.

How can you tell that *anyone* has a "skimpy" posting style when you
have no way of knowing how many aliases they use, which newsgroups
they post to or how long their posting history is. I post under
various names on different groups. How are you going to find them?

You are living in a dream world. You are far from a skilled usenet
user.
Post by Bill Palmer
For instance, I recall that vicious nut case
back east who took a gun to work and killed
a number of his fellow workers. Some people
in Usenet made a big deal about this jerk's
having posted to Usenet. Yet, the fact was that
his posting history was so skimpy that nothing
about him came through at all.
You wouldn't know.
Post by Bill Palmer
He was a blob
in Usenet just as he was in real life, according
to what came out at the trial. I suspect that
he had too much bottled up inside him to allow
him to release his creative potential and
really become a contributing part of the Usenet
thoughtstream.
There is no usenet thought stream. There is nothing but usenet chaos.
Post by Bill Palmer
And again, just look closer at the current
violence in society. We just had a horrible
case in L. A. where these gang-banging jokers
shot three wonderful kids in front of a high
school. Do you actually think any of the
gun-crazy creeps behind that ever made a
Usenet post?
Very probably if they were under twenty or so, but almost certainly
some of them would have experience of violent video games.
Post by Bill Palmer
(I'm sure we could add hundreds
more cases of violence, just from the past few
weeks, across the country, where it is very
unlikely that the perpetrators ever
heard of, let alone used, Usenet.
You are out of touch. I didn't say just usenet had an effect, it is
also violent video games and very few of the younger generation would
have managed to avoid being influenced by one or both. ( I am in my
forties BTW, so I regard anyone under twenty-five as young)

I have children ranging from teenage to twenties and all of them and
all of their friends are very familiar with usenet and video games.
They were all issued with access codes and passwords when they entered
high school. The older ones use computers for all their work in
University and have done so for years.

Where do you get the idea that young people don't know much about the
internet? Don't forget where the internet started; on campuses in the
sixties.
Post by Bill Palmer
And,
to repeat, in the very rare cases where
they have, they have had very marginal
net histories anyway. (We might add
Taliban Johnny: his Usenet history was
actually very skimpy too.)
You wouldn't know!
Post by Bill Palmer
As far as video games, I am skeptical about
your inferences there too. Of course, I have
studied Dr. Fred Wertham's anti-crime and
horror comic crusade in the early 1950's
and you probably know nothing about that.
I am familiar with his books and his pressure to regulate the
industry. He was considered a bit of a joke. He had other peculiar
beliefs, some regarding the advertising industry and he tried to ban
various television and magazine ads.
Post by Bill Palmer
Wertham, at one time a respected psychiatrist,
made himself famous with his war against
comic books, which he was convinced
were responsible for the rising rate of
delinquency in the U. S., which began to
cllimb after World War II. Yet, after
Wertham (in 1955) got the biggest and most
powerful comic book distributors to agree to
very tough form of self-censorship which put
crime and horror comics out of business, did
juvenile delinquency decline? Not at all--
it shot upward (in the late 1950's).
So?
Post by Bill Palmer
So, when I hear all this stuff about video
games and violence, I think about Fred
Wertham and his anti-comic crusade.
Yes, I guess you would. If it isn't within your existing experience,
it doesn't count. It has no validity unless you are aware of it being
successful at an earlier time.

You really are narrow minded. I have no idea whether regulating the
comic industry had and effect or not, and nor do you.

It would be totally unrealistic to expect that the only indication of
it working was a complete reversal in delinquency rates. The only way
to know would be to have a parallel universe where they made no
changes. Guess what?
Post by Bill Palmer
All in all, I have to conclude that you
haven't really thought through your
conclusions.
That's ok Palmer, I conclude that you can't reason.

I am making no concrete claims, I suspect that the issues that I
mentioned have a fairly major impact on the younger generation, but I
have no way of knowing for sure. I do know that you have not a clue
about the younger generation nor about usenet. I can't believe that
you feel the younger generation doesn't know about usenet, ICQ, chat
rooms, newsgroups, on-line gaming etc., etc.

Why do you think so many countries have had to introduce internet
harassment and anti stalking laws? Do you really think that an online
threat, sufficient to require legal intervention, could never spill
over into real world violence? People have been killed for cutting
someone off in traffic, why would weeks or months of internet
annoyance not be capable of generating a similar or more intense
anger? Many Police forces have instituted internet crimes units and
they spend more time dealing with threats than with fraud. This is
first hand experience, I have worked with some of them as recently as
last year.
Post by Bill Palmer
In fact, I believe most of
the violence today stems from the same
things that caused it when Dr. Wertham was
ignorance, alcohol, drugs, easy availability
of guns, mental disease, and destructive
situations in homes when children are
growing up.
These are elements that add fuel to the fire, but they were factors
that existed even in Dickens' time; they are far from new. Something
is making things worse very rapidly. It is readily accepted that
broken homes have a lot to do with delinquency, no father figure etc.,
but something new has an influence. In the days of West Side Story and
the gangs of that era, there was violence and fighting, but not
pointless, cruel, sadistic violence, not mass killing of strangers.
Things have changed.

Maybe it is the new generation of comics, no censorship at all. <g>

In '94 a female journalist showed me a comic book that depicted a
newly buried woman's grave being dug up so that a group of teenagers
could have sex with her. Who would you imagine that comic book was
created for? It was Japanese BTW. The journalist was on a crusade to
have the comics banned. She didn't succeed.

There are a lot of factors relating to reduced empathy, increased
violence, less control, my concern is thousands of hours playing
violent first person games and the effect of years of unrestrained
usenet flaming. Young people have no need to develop self control when
they spend dozens of hours per week in an environment where self
control is not needed or can't be enforced. Not all young people, just
a core sufficient to be noticeable in statistical trends.

Sean
Bill Palmer
2003-09-13 15:57:25 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by s***@aol.com
You are right, but those that have usenet experience interact with
those that haven't and set examples. The per capita figures quoted
for internet access are not a true guide as to usenet and chat room
experience in the general population, but try and find a school kid
who isn't familiar. It is in our younger population that these violent
trends are most apparent.
Please don't compare Usenet with chat rooms.
I do agree that ignorant minds make such an
association, but it is completely unfair.
Chat rooms are bad places all right, but that
is because of the low level of thinking and
writing that they seem to encourage. And,
as I said in the earlier post, while the media
has frightened the net-clueless portion of
the public with horror stories of teenage
girls running off with middle-aged men they
met in chatrooms, my suspicion is that for
any teen age girl who would run off with a
man she met in t chatroom there are no doubt
dozens more who run off with men they met
in front of the 7-11 or at the mall. In
other words, it is a problem of upbringing, not
of some terrible and mysterious power of the
net as the media likes to suggest.

[...]
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by s***@aol.com
Post by Ultraviolet
We've got trouble right here in Cyber City?
Nah, we're safe here, it is in real life that the projectiles hurt. On
the other hand there was an incident reported in Australian papers a
month or so ago where several men broke into an apartment, tied up the
occupants, doused them with petrol and threatened to set fire to them
if they made a sound. They waited for the remaining occupant to
return, grabbed him, held him down and hacked his fingers off with an
axe. Initially police were puzzled as to motive, then stated that they
knew the motive but wouldn't go public with it. A couple of weeks
later, a relative of the injured man claimed that it was in
retaliation for remarks that the man had made during a flame war on
usenet.
Well, that can happen. As some of the readers know,
I was jumped coming out of a restaurant in Del Mar.
In that case, I committed a serious security lapse
by--in a friendly mood--meeting some people in a
cybercafe in San Diego and introducing myself as
"Bill Palmer from the net," which I enjoy doing,
just to see people's reaction. While most people
are absolutely delighted, it turned out that this
group had a grudge against me for a little brouhaha
in a cyberpunk group, where I have been explaining
the second generation of cyberunk to a crowd of
writers who can't et beyond writing Gibson-
imitations. Apparently, they trailed me up to
Del Mar, and waited for me to come out the
restaurant on Pacific Coast Highway. I got
bruised up, but I got in a few licks of my
own, I can tell you. I'm a peace-loving
person, but not to extent that I'm going to
lie there and let three people kick and pound
on me if I can help it. Fortunately, a
couple of passers-by came to the rescue
before anyone was seriously hurt. The
assailants scrambled off like the rodents
they were, of course.

So, I agree it can happen, although
I had not heard about the incident in Australia
until I read your post. Even so, I don't see it
as much as a net problem as much as a problem of
human nature. There are always people who
can't stand to have their ideas challenged or to
be lampooned in public. Usenet groups are
public forums, and anyone who posts to them is
in effect speaking out in public. Since I am
a very well known writer and satirist, I need
to be more security conscious than the average
person, and, as I said, I have to blame what
happened first on the individuals who
perpetrated it, and second on my own
carelessness. In no way do I blame the net.
[...]
Post by ROTC Jeep List
I make tongue-in-cheek "threats" all the time, but to even think that anyone
could do that sort of thing... Just tonight, I sent a phony address to
someone and dared him to come fight me. Now I'm gonna have nightmares about
some elderly couple getting murdered because I provoked a psycho. Christ...
That guy could be thinking I'm gonna track him down and kill him.
Well, they ARE out there, make no mistake about
that. It is the nature of our society that
whether you are speaking out on television or
in Usenet, you can never be one-hundred percent
sure you are not riling up some vicious nut case.
When I first got on the net, I had some hair
raising experiences because I got in email
encounters with people I should have never
responded to. In one case, it became very clear
that a guy who had been emailing me, trying to
get me on his side in a flame war, was a dangerous
psycho. Now, I don't even like to read Usenet-
related email. It is a lot easier to get
"twined up" (long "i"; great country expression!)
with the wrong folks. My feeling has been for
years that if people have something to say to me
regarding a Usenet post, they should say it
in the appropriate forum.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
This sounds like serious urban legend material, but it's damn scary
nonetheless. Just two nights ago, I had a nightmare in which I was tied to
a pole and my fingers were cut off with bolt clippers.
Ouch!


I had a nightmare
Post by ROTC Jeep List
last month in which I was placed in thumb cuffs which were then heated until
they turned red and burned my thumbs off.
Sounds like you have been watching too
much television, especially news reports.
[...]
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by s***@aol.com
It would seem wise to remain anonymous if you wish to express
unpopular opinions on usenet.
It can be a tough call. In my case, I am
conducting a writing experiment to see how
popular a writer can become while staying in
Usenet. That wouldn't work very well using a
pseudonym. There are some excellent writers in
Usenet who have gained no name recognition
at all, or almost none, hecuase they have
posted under a bewildering array of monikers.
But for people who simply want to express an
opinion and have no interest in building name
recognition in net audiences, the situation
is different and they have to decide whether
or not to remain anonymous. I do believe that
the right to remain anonymous is an important
part of free speech in Usenet, though I do
not hesitate to rake people over hot coals
when they use a phony name for cowardly,
libelous purposes.


the alt.genius.bill-palmer
--posting from an office high
above rec.arts.prose
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by s***@aol.com
Sean
s***@aol.com
2003-09-13 18:20:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Palmer
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by s***@aol.com
You are right, but those that have usenet experience interact with
those that haven't and set examples. The per capita figures quoted
for internet access are not a true guide as to usenet and chat room
experience in the general population, but try and find a school kid
who isn't familiar. It is in our younger population that these violent
trends are most apparent.
Please don't compare Usenet with chat rooms.
I didn't. I said "usenet and chat room" experience. That was not a
comparison.

Chat rooms are all a part of a young person's internet experience as
is usenet. Few will use one medium to the total exclusion of the
other.
Post by Bill Palmer
I do agree that ignorant minds make such an
association, but it is completely unfair.
Experienced and intelligent minds *do* make an association; they are
not the same but they are both a part of the internet and hence
associated. Usenet might have started with UUCP but it is part of the
internet now, as is the chat protocol. Get used to it.
Post by Bill Palmer
Chat rooms are bad places all right, but that
is because of the low level of thinking and
writing that they seem to encourage.
As against the high standards in all newsgroups?
Post by Bill Palmer
And,
as I said in the earlier post, while the media
has frightened the net-clueless portion of
the public with horror stories of teenage
girls running off with middle-aged men they
met in chatrooms, my suspicion is that for
any teen age girl who would run off with a
man she met in t chatroom there are no doubt
dozens more who run off with men they met
in front of the 7-11 or at the mall.
I have no doubt that you are correct, but the difference is that in
those horror stories, the adult men *posed* as teenagers initially.
Post by Bill Palmer
In
other words, it is a problem of upbringing, not
of some terrible and mysterious power of the
net as the media likes to suggest.
It is a problem involving both, plus many other factors. Some people,
mostly teenaged males, can be adversely affected by "the internet" .
It makes them moody, affects their schooling and makes them
disassociate with family. They have counseling for it in many areas
nowadays.
Post by Bill Palmer
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by s***@aol.com
Post by Ultraviolet
We've got trouble right here in Cyber City?
Nah, we're safe here, it is in real life that the projectiles hurt. On
the other hand there was an incident reported in Australian papers a
month or so ago where several men broke into an apartment, tied up the
occupants, doused them with petrol and threatened to set fire to them
if they made a sound. They waited for the remaining occupant to
return, grabbed him, held him down and hacked his fingers off with an
axe. Initially police were puzzled as to motive, then stated that they
knew the motive but wouldn't go public with it. A couple of weeks
later, a relative of the injured man claimed that it was in
retaliation for remarks that the man had made during a flame war on
usenet.
Well, that can happen. As some of the readers know,
I was jumped coming out of a restaurant in Del Mar.
In that case, I committed a serious security lapse
by--in a friendly mood--meeting some people in a
cybercafe in San Diego and introducing myself as
"Bill Palmer from the net," which I enjoy doing,
just to see people's reaction. While most people
are absolutely delighted, it turned out that this
group had a grudge against me for a little brouhaha
in a cyberpunk group, where I have been explaining
the second generation of cyberunk to a crowd of
writers who can't et beyond writing Gibson-
imitations.
Bethke, Gibson, Dick, Sterling, all of them apparently haven't known
what they were doing according to you. These guys created the genre,
but you, who have never published anything, want to argue that it is
something different. Pretty normal for you I suppose.
Post by Bill Palmer
Apparently, they trailed me up to
Del Mar, and waited for me to come out the
restaurant on Pacific Coast Highway. I got
bruised up, but I got in a few licks of my
own, I can tell you. I'm a peace-loving
person, but not to extent that I'm going to
lie there and let three people kick and pound
on me if I can help it. Fortunately, a
couple of passers-by came to the rescue
before anyone was seriously hurt. The
assailants scrambled off like the rodents
they were, of course.
Yet you argue that the internet doesn't have an impact on people and
violence.
Post by Bill Palmer
So, I agree it can happen, although
I had not heard about the incident in Australia
until I read your post. Even so, I don't see it
as much as a net problem as much as a problem of
human nature.
The net is influencing human nature, as does everything we interact
with in our normal lives. The net has become a large part of both
personal and business lives.
Post by Bill Palmer
There are always people who
can't stand to have their ideas challenged or to
be lampooned in public. Usenet groups are
public forums, and anyone who posts to them is
in effect speaking out in public. Since I am
a very well known writer and satirist, I need
to be more security conscious than the average
person, and, as I said, I have to blame what
happened first on the individuals who
perpetrated it, and second on my own
carelessness. In no way do I blame the net.
It isn't a matter of blaming, it is a matter of fact. If you hadn't
been annoying people on the net, it wouldn't have happened. It is
happening to many more people only some aren't lucky enough to have
someone rescue them.
Post by Bill Palmer
Post by ROTC Jeep List
I make tongue-in-cheek "threats" all the time, but to even think that anyone
could do that sort of thing... Just tonight, I sent a phony address to
someone and dared him to come fight me. Now I'm gonna have nightmares about
some elderly couple getting murdered because I provoked a psycho. Christ...
That guy could be thinking I'm gonna track him down and kill him.
Well, they ARE out there, make no mistake about
that. It is the nature of our society that
whether you are speaking out on television or
in Usenet, you can never be one-hundred percent
sure you are not riling up some vicious nut case.
Or in the case of the net, hundreds of them because rather than making
one public statement, you are there every day, rubbing it in. Someone
will probably get you again if you aren't very careful. You do annoy
people, unfortunately, you think that most of them like it. Most think
that you are an irritating old fool.
Post by Bill Palmer
When I first got on the net, I had some hair
raising experiences because I got in email
encounters with people I should have never
responded to. In one case, it became very clear
that a guy who had been emailing me, trying to
get me on his side in a flame war, was a dangerous
psycho. Now, I don't even like to read Usenet-
related email. It is a lot easier to get
"twined up" (long "i"; great country expression!)
with the wrong folks. My feeling has been for
years that if people have something to say to me
regarding a Usenet post, they should say it
in the appropriate forum.
Post by ROTC Jeep List
This sounds like serious urban legend material, but it's damn scary
nonetheless. Just two nights ago, I had a nightmare in which I was tied to
a pole and my fingers were cut off with bolt clippers.
Ouch!
I had a nightmare
Post by ROTC Jeep List
last month in which I was placed in thumb cuffs which were then heated until
they turned red and burned my thumbs off.
Sounds like you have been watching too
much television, especially news reports.
[...]
Post by ROTC Jeep List
Post by s***@aol.com
It would seem wise to remain anonymous if you wish to express
unpopular opinions on usenet.
It can be a tough call. In my case, I am
conducting a writing experiment to see how
popular a writer can become while staying in
Usenet.
You must be very disappointed so far.
Post by Bill Palmer
That wouldn't work very well using a
pseudonym. There are some excellent writers in
Usenet who have gained no name recognition
at all, or almost none, hecuase they have
posted under a bewildering array of monikers.
If the writing is good, they will be known. Your name may be better
known, but not as a writer, you are known as a kook.

Using a psuedonym does not mean you can't become known. You do not
have to keep changing it you can use it for years. Many do.
Post by Bill Palmer
But for people who simply want to express an
opinion and have no interest in building name
recognition in net audiences, the situation
is different and they have to decide whether
or not to remain anonymous. I do believe that
the right to remain anonymous is an important
part of free speech in Usenet, though I do
not hesitate to rake people over hot coals
when they use a phony name for cowardly,
libelous purposes.
Maybe the next person you try to "rake" will follow from another
restaurant. Be careful, people can trace you to the address you
are dialling in from unless you take precautions. Not everyone
has the ability, but some do.

Sean
Ultraviolet
2003-09-13 14:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@aol.com
Post by Ultraviolet
<>
Post by s***@aol.com
Life requires what is often referred to as a "veneer of
civilization", a mask, in order to lubricate the mechanisms of our
interaction with each other. Without that mask, friction would make
all social interaction impossible.
Every adult, with the exception of those who are intellectually or
emotionally abnormal, wears this protective mask; it is as essential
to us as food, water and shelter. It protects us both from
attacking, (and society's consequences for such a course of action),
and being attacked. Usenet lets us interact without that mask; it
allows others to glimpse our real personality. We don't have to keep
up the pretence when we are anonymous.
Except for the peeps who deliberately don a mask to interact on
usenet. They exist, so there goes your theory.
No, they don't "don a mask" they turn themselves loose.
Some don masks. I'm telling you it is so. How do I know? Because I've
done it, dur.
Post by s***@aol.com
They may disguise themselves, but it still is their "wannabe" nature
that shine through. You will not get someone who is genuinely gentle
and considerate in nature donning the mask of an abusive and obnoxious
person, but you might get someone who has had to "play" gentle and
considerate doing so.
You might. You might also get other things. People are vastly different
from each other, Sean, despite your attempt to stuff them in the same
box. Not everyone dons the A&O mask, either.
Post by s***@aol.com
Post by Ultraviolet
Post by s***@aol.com
Have you ever wondered about the increased incidence of various
"rages"? People are losing control, suddenly and violently in all
manner of situations.
Road rage was the first commonly noticed and discussed. Since then,
the "rage" label has been applied to many other occupations or
pastimes. The rise in various "rage" incidences coincides, perhaps
no more than coincidentally, with the rise in usegroup use and
violent first person video games.
Videogames, sure <waves to Scott and Lorrill>, but most people have
never even heard of newsgroups.
You are right, but those that have usenet experience interact with
those that haven't and set examples. The per capita figures quoted
for internet access are not a true guide as to usenet and chat room
experience in the general population, but try and find a school kid
who isn't familiar. It is in our younger population that these violent
trends are most apparent.
Yes. I don't think unsupervised online interaction is good for kids. I'm
not talking about pedos preying on them, but about the kids' ability to
handle conflict from the "dark room."

<>
Post by s***@aol.com
It would seem wise to remain anonymous if you wish to express
unpopular opinions on usenet.
Agreed.
--
UV
Alan Hope
2003-09-13 23:48:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@aol.com
They may disguise themselves, but it still is their "wannabe" nature
that shine through. You will not get someone who is genuinely gentle
and considerate in nature donning the mask of an abusive and obnoxious
person, but you might get someone who has had to "play" gentle and
considerate doing so.
How would you know? On the basis of the evidence available, the two
states are identical.
--
AH
s***@aol.com
2003-09-15 03:34:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Hope
Post by s***@aol.com
They may disguise themselves, but it still is their "wannabe" nature
that shine through. You will not get someone who is genuinely gentle
and considerate in nature donning the mask of an abusive and obnoxious
person, but you might get someone who has had to "play" gentle and
considerate doing so.
How would you know? On the basis of the evidence available, the two
states are identical.
Not at all. That is like saying that people who are truly content to
stay at home, read books, potter in the garden etc., and people doing
compulsory home detention sentences are identical.

Sean
Alan Hope
2003-09-15 15:12:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@aol.com
Post by Alan Hope
Post by s***@aol.com
They may disguise themselves, but it still is their "wannabe" nature
that shine through. You will not get someone who is genuinely gentle
and considerate in nature donning the mask of an abusive and obnoxious
person, but you might get someone who has had to "play" gentle and
considerate doing so.
How would you know? On the basis of the evidence available, the two
states are identical.
Not at all. That is like saying that people who are truly content to
stay at home, read books, potter in the garden etc., and people doing
compulsory home detention sentences are identical.
Indeed. And how do you know your second set of people doesn't contain
members of the first set? How do you *know* the person you only see as
hostile and abusive is really hostile and abusive, or someone truly
gentle playing at being hostile and abusive? In a text-only medium
like this, the difference is imaginary.
--
AH
Bill Palmer
2003-09-13 18:09:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ultraviolet
<>
Post by s***@aol.com
Life requires what is often referred to as a "veneer of civilization",
a mask, in order to lubricate the mechanisms of our interaction with
each other. Without that mask, friction would make all social
interaction impossible.
Interesting. the way that parallels Freud, who
would maintain that the mask is the ego and
without the mask we are creatures of the id.
Post by Ultraviolet
Post by s***@aol.com
Every adult, with the exception of those who are intellectually or
emotionally abnormal, wears this protective mask; it is as essential
to us as food, water and shelter. It protects us both from attacking,
(and society's consequences for such a course of action), and being
attacked. Usenet lets us interact without that mask; it allows others
to glimpse our real personality. We don't have to keep up the pretence
when we are anonymous.
Except for the peeps who deliberately don a mask to interact on usenet.
They exist, so there goes your theory.
Well, it would be interesting to see
how you distinguish between a "mask" and
a literary persona. Usenet IS a world of
words, after all.
[...]
Post by Ultraviolet
Post by s***@aol.com
I don't believe that any of this *is* coincidence. I think that it is
the result of blurring of the borders between virtual and real life
and that as more people experience usenet the ability for them to
respond appropriately in society will diminish.
Hmmm. Going with an anecdotal example of one, your reasoning is faulty.
Your point is intersting to me because, after having
studied the anti-comic crusade of Dr. Frederick
Wertham, I have noticed a number of strong parallels
with what is going on today regarding the heavy
criticism of videogames from a number of groups.
Anyway, it has been pointed out that Wertham's
entire case (presented in a very sensationalistic
fashion in his bestselling screed SEDUCTION OF
THE INNOCENT) rested on anecdotal cases. Nowadays
SOTI is considered something like a masterpiece
of bad logic. Despite his impressive credentials,
Wertham packed logical fallacies into almost every
page.
Post by Ultraviolet
Post by s***@aol.com
Add to that scenario the loss of respect for Government, family, and
traditional authority figures and you have modern society and the path
it is on.
We've got trouble right here in Cyber City?
Not as much as the media would have people
believe. Basically, this is a public place
and people with a little experience in life
know that in a public place you run into all
sorts of people. We tend to get feeling cozy
and snug in our nice friendly groups, but we should
not forget that this here comfy' little lounge
is open to the public after all. We don't
REALLY know who that dude lurking over there by
the jukebox with his hat pulled down over his face
REALLY is or what he might be up to...you just
know he is LISTENING...(creepy, huh?)...Oh,
they are out there all right...draggers...but
they are lot more likely to get you througn
cyber-dating and chatrooms. It is more difficult
for them to reach into Usenet, because in most cases
their dragging behavior quickly becomes apparent.


the alt.genius.bill-palmer
--churning out the postings from his
office high above rec.arts.prose
Rotcod Eman
2003-09-21 12:26:33 UTC
Permalink
snippered (is that a word, but I like the sound of it, I don't know if it
comes in another colour, nor what colour it is now)
Post by s***@aol.com
Have you ever wondered about the increased incidence of various
"rages"? People are losing control, suddenly and violently in all
manner of situations.
Yes (lol, I will write more at the bottom)
Post by s***@aol.com
Road rage was the first commonly noticed and discussed. Since then,
the "rage" label has been applied to many other occupations or
pastimes. The rise in various "rage" incidences coincides, perhaps no
more than coincidentally, with the rise in usegroup use and violent
first person video games.
I don't believe that any of this *is* coincidence. I think that it is
the result of blurring of the borders between virtual and real life
and that as more people experience usenet the ability for them to
respond appropriately in society will diminish.
Add to that scenario the loss of respect for Government, family, and
traditional authority figures and you have modern society and the path
it is on.
Sean
You have actually hit a ball right up my alley Sean... lol... I could call
it, "the reasons I'm so fucked up" or I could call it "the reasons society
is so fucked up" or, "why I have looked for answers" or all and more.

If we look at history we see that the population of any country will be
oppressed for only so long before the people revolt. Look at the French
Revolution, the Russian overthrow of the Czar, the various Independence
battles in America against Britain.

If we look at the school teenage murder suicide instances, we see that
likewise, the people were victims of bullies, who finally had enough.
Unfortunately, like the baby that screams because it is hungry or has messed
it's pants and is no longer warm, not having knowledge of other ways of
dealing with it, have lashed out. And in ignorance, none of us know any
other ways, as a society, and so it goes on. The blurring of reality and
simulation allows them to practice and build confidence with fire arms
tactics etc... The fact that the fire arms are easily available also adds to
it... If it came down to beating up their bullies with their bare hands,
they might not even try to do it. The fact that a gun is a "easy" way to
harm another adds up with the "virtual practice" they have been building
the "perceived" skills they think they have.

Another factor to consider is the world of stresses we have these days.
There is more traffic on the road than ever before. The pace of modern
living with modern technology means that we are doing more in a day than
others did in a week many decades ago. Any obstacles that get in our way
which is beyond our control, tends to be the things that grate on us,
especially after we have come out of the virtual world, where we have so
much control.

On the roads, there are the deadlines that need to be met, and
everyone needing to be somewhere sooner or later. There's free time being
wasted, there's someone else chewing you out because you are not perfect,
and
they are so stressed they need to dump it out of them and your handy and
part of the trigger (straws and camels). Its no longer happening to just
one or
a few its happening to so many that they all might murder each other in a
chain
reaction in the elevator with their bare hands. (nobody fart pls)

And so it goes on and on, like a juggler getting faster and faster, until
finally a distraction results in a fist flying out of the arc of catching
the balls. And it happens at such great speed, bursting forth so quickly,
because we are operating so fast within us in this fast paced world, that
what would be a consideration at low speed becomes an instinctive
reaction. Speed Kills is more true than many think.
Note country people live longer and go a slower pace. They also
tend to be more trusting and sincere. And often are prey for the
city slickers which have not conscience looking for easy pickings.

Then we have the fact that people want to be ignorant rather than
responsible for their actions. That they want to say something was
coincidence instead of saying that it was because, at least in part, of our
influence. We are all accountable for our what we sow to the world.

We have abused children growing up to be abusers, and we attack
them en masse with the fear of the mob. We have people being brought up
with role models as criminals, and being put in jails, because we allow them
in the name of freedom, and with all ignorance to be brought up in these
situations. We are killing criminals, because we failed to look after them
when they were innocent children, and loving the thrill of seeing the bad
guy get it, helping us take our minds of our own troubles. Delighting when
another fails or seems less than perfect, for in doing so it makes us look a
little better. Hiding from others the inner most secrets of our own
failings. Covering up our mistakes because we are ridiculed instead of
being encouraged and directed to better heights of our potential.

Seems too many are trying to be perfect. That life is harder than it used
to be in many "intellectual" and "fairness" ways, because people know more
en masse these days, where as people were called geniuses for knowing less
not so many decades ago. For the rules about "seeming to be beyond
reproach" means that your brother cannot run the FBI because you are
president. But apparently it doesn't stop your son from becoming governor.
<grin> (psst... no beating the bushes)

Today what is called a bribe, was once before seen as a gift to find favour,
which is not that different from the American "tip" to a waiter etc who
knows
you will be coming back. And in time what was once good will and a choice
from good fortune, became expected with the "spit in your food" if you don't
be nice to me.

And someone said it so well may years ago..."treat others as you want to be
treated." Note it is done first as an example and then they know what is
going on, and what is expected of them... But if you start out insulting
someone and they turn around and point out your flaws, is it your fault?

Meanwhile the bullied victim gets a variety of battles against them, and
they either crack or they don't. They may go on to be 40 before they start
becoming more assertive and then aggressive... there seems to be much more
that the down trodden need to learn before they lash out in a bad way some
time after the "seeds" for this have been planted and "watered" and then it
might be as the straw that breaks the camels back, the one word that
triggers it all off. If they don't reach critical mass, they don't lash
out,
but
hold it in and get cancers in proportions like never before in history.

And yet it is all a mystery full of coincidences, and you are only crying
I'm
a
victim if you don't handle it and die of cancer like everyone else. So lets
blame someone else and vent on them, or vote someone else out, or kill
another convict to make us feel a little better and in control of this great
mystery of coincidence. Where we just don't want to see the truth, because
we can't handle the truth of personal responsibility for every thought we
have, and every word we say, and every action we do.

After all why would we want to change things when nobody understands
their own personal responsibility as part of the whole?

Though one day, the things which were seen as acceptable behaviour will
be considered against human rights... oh thetas happening already.

The things we consider to be our freedom of speech, will one day be
stopped as a crime against humanity, and in some cases it is.

Am I my brothers keeper? Yes I am part of the whole. We are all part
of the whole. What we do effects another for good or for bad.

I say this as a general to the whole, which is every person that is...
So next time you feel like tearing someone down simply because you
can consider that if the tables were reversed would you like? And if
you would like it, perhaps, just perhaps, you need help!


So what was the question? ;-)

[BTW, I hope no one expects these to be as rewritten as a
submission for print to an editor, surely once over is enough]

What you sew is what you wear :-p

--
Peace & Goodwill
Treat Others with Respect and be Respected

Dr E

ghost
2003-09-13 15:31:45 UTC
Permalink
If "real" life was like the better neighborhoods of the Usenet, I could ask
a fairly technical question of a bunch of strangers and, within the space of
of a couple days, get several (or more) very good answers... maybe a couple
flames if I asked a really STUPID question.
ROTC Jeep List
2003-09-13 23:02:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by ghost
If "real" life was like the better neighborhoods of the Usenet, I could ask
a fairly technical question of a bunch of strangers and, within the space of
of a couple days, get several (or more) very good answers... maybe a couple
flames if I asked a really STUPID question.
Definitely true.

This made me think of an article I read the other day...

"The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly, or How to Choose a Writers' Group"
http://hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/group1.html


A lot of groups are full of experts. For single questions, this is good.
It just gets complicated when the experts sit around all day and talk trash
to each other, and it's worse when non-expert come in and start pretending
to be experts.

A tightly-knit group may be a good thing. It could also mean social
politics, groupthink, xenophobia and gossip. I can handle some criticism,
but being attacked for offending the "sensibilities of the group" is not
something I want to put up with. I don't want to lurk for months just to
learn how not to offend some control freaks either.

Other groups are so insane that even posting to them in the first place is a
bad idea. I won't name any here, but I can tell you I never got flamed in
alt.pokemon. Not once. ^_^






--






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